On this “Face the Nation” broadcast, moderated by Nancy Cordes:
Nikki Haley, former U.S. ambassador to the U.N. North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper House Foreign Affairs Committee chairman Rep. Michael McCaul, Republican of TexasRep. Jim Himes, Democrat of Connecticut
Click here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: As Vice President Harris and former President Trump prepare to face off for the first time in Philadelphia, an exclusive conversation with Trump’s top primary rival, former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley.
(Begin VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have endorsed – endorsed Donald Trump. You spoke at the convention, but are you going to campaign for him?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY (R-South Carolina): You know, he knows I’m on standby.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: With just under two months until Election Day, Nikki Haley shares her advice on what the Republican nominees should be focused on to win.
Harris ally North Carolina’s Democratic Governor Roy Cooper will also join us. His state has gone red the last three presidential elections. What would it take for his party to win it this November?
Plus: The U.S. uncovers a sprawling effort by Russia to interfere with the 2024 elections. We will talk with the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Connecticut’s Jim Himes.
And the chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Michael McCaul, will be here. He’s revealing the results of his three-year investigation into the Biden administration’s withdrawal from Afghanistan.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
We’re starting a consequential week for both the Trump and Harris campaigns. With just 58 days until Election Day, both are preparing for their first debate. Will it change a race that remains neck-and-neck?
We begin this morning with our new CBS Battleground Tracker poll of the three key states of Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin, where the race is essentially even. Vice President
Kamala Harris is up just one point in Michigan, tied with former President Trump in Pennsylvania, and up two points in Wisconsin.
Senior White House correspondent Weijia Jiang is in one of those states, Pennsylvania, and has the latest from the trail.
(Begin VT)
(LAUGHTER)
WEIJIA JIANG (voice-over): In Pittsburgh…
GIRL: Can I have a hug?
KAMALA HARRIS (Vice President of the United States (D) and U.S. Presidential Candidate): Yes, come here. Of course.
WEIJIA JIANG: … Vice President Harris took a break from intense debate preps to shop with voters.
QUESTION: Are you ready to face Donald Trump?
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: Yes, I am.
WEIJIA JIANG: Harris was asked what she wants to get across during the debate.
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: It’s time to turn the page on the divisiveness. It’s time to bring our country together, chart a new way forward.
WEIJIA JIANG: Rallying in Wisconsin, Trump had a different message.
DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the United States (R) and Current U.S. Presidential Candidate): We’re run by stupid people, stupid, stupid people.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: And we found that out at the debate with Joe. How did that work out? And we’re going to find it out again on Tuesday night. Is anybody going to be watching?
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
WEIJIA JIANG: Harris’ aides say she plans to focus on policy, not personality.
Our new poll shows Harris is competitive, in part because voters think she will help the middle class, and she has an edge on making housing more affordable. But Trump is doing better with those who say the economy and inflation are major issues, especially holding favor among non-college and white voters.
(End VT)
WEIJIA JIANG: Sources familiar with Trump’s debate prep say it’s been informal, but he is going over specific policy proposals.
A senior Harris campaign official says they believe Trump thrives under bright lights and on national TV, and they expect he will be ready – Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s Weijia Jiang in Pittsburgh.
We caught up with former Republican presidential candidate Nikki Haley on Friday. The former ambassador and South Carolina governor explained why she is supporting Trump, but you will also hear her views on what she thinks he should be focused on in these last two months until Election Day.
We began by asking if she will campaign with him.
(Begin VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: You said you’re on standby. In other words, you haven’t been asked to campaign.
Are you advising at all on his debate preparation or speaking to the campaign?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY (R-South Carolina): I’m not.
And, you know, that’s his choice. He can – you know, whatever he decides to do with his campaign, he can do that. But when I called him back in June, I told him I was supportive. I think the teams have talked to each other a little bit, but there hasn’t been an ask as of yet. But, you know, should he ask, I’m happy to be helpful.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Donald Trump just finished a press conference, three- quarters of which was about grievances related to that past conviction related to alleged sexual assault.
I know, when you were campaigning, you said you had no reason really to question the findings of the jury related to the defamation case brought by E. Jean Carroll.
I’m not asking you about the specifics of the case, but if that’s the focus of a press conference for a presidential candidate, A, is it the best use of his time, and what is the message to female voters to be going through this again?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: Well, I think the focus for me is on policy. You know, I think I have always…
MARGARET BRENNAN: But he’s the candidate.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: No.
And I have always said, look, if I thought Biden or Trump were great candidates, I wouldn’t have run for president. I ran because I thought I could do a better job. I don’t…
MARGARET BRENNAN: You don’t think he’s a good candidate?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: I think he is the Republican nominee, and I think, put him against Kamala Harris, who’s the Democrat nominee. For me, it’s not a question.
Now, do I agree with his style? Do I agree with his approach? Do I agree with his communications? No. When I look at the policies and how they affect my family and how I think they’re going to affect the country, that’s where I go back and I look at the differences.
I mean, this is – these are the candidates we have been given. You look at Kamala Harris, and it’s quite remarkable. She never had a debate, she never had a primary, she never had anyone vote for her, and they basically took her, and, in 48 hours, they put her back out there, and she was this whole new candidate.
But the reality is, she has a record. The administration has a record. Trump has a record. And so neither are perfect. Neither are ideal.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So let’s talk about the policies, then.
One of the things that we know is hurting American families is the high cost of childcare. The Federal Reserve said parents typically spend 50 to 70 percent as much per month on childcare as they do on their housing payment, which is usually the largest monthly expense.
Yet yesterday, Donald Trump said:
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the United States (R) and Current U.S. Presidential Candidate): As much as childcare is talked about as being expensive, it’s, relatively speaking, not very expensive.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That sounds out of touch with the economic statistics.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: I mean, childcare is very expensive. I – I know, just even at the time that I had little kids, I worked just to pay for our childcare.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, what part of his policy do you like on that? Because you said, on your policies, that’s what made you back him.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: It is. And what I liked were the tax cuts that he had, that Kamala wants to remove. You know, when he…
MARGARET BRENNAN: She wants to also expand the child tax credit.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: But that’s the problem.
When you get into child tax credits, you’re picking winners and losers. You know what I would rather? I would rather them just cut middle-class taxes across the board. Families need more money for housing, for childcare, for gas, for everything just to live their life.
I’m looking at the facts. Under Harris, they raised taxes. Under Trump, they cut taxes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you don’t like childcare tax credits that Trump’s proposing either?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: I think we have to do something to help childcare. What I would rather say is, rather than you saying we’re going to give childcare tax credits, help everybody. Cut middle-class taxes.
That’s really what people need. Let them have more money, whether it’s housing, whether it’s rent, whether it’s groceries, whether it’s gas, whether it’s childcare. They need some relief. And so whether – I’m – I don’t oppose a childcare tax credit, but I think cutting middle-class taxes across the board is better.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So we know that, since Vice President Harris entered the race, the gap among women voters has grown to a now double-digit lead for her over Donald Trump, according to our CBS most recent survey.
So how do they close that? Because, just as recently as last week, J.D. Vance said he’s disoriented and disturbed that the head of the most powerful teachers union in the country doesn’t have a single child.
He continues to say things that certainly are highlighted as being offensive to women. That is going to hurt, won’t it, with female voters?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: It’s not helpful. It’s not helpful.
I mean…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is he an – an effective messenger for the policies you say they are stronger on?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: I think that the policies – look, you can either look at style or you can look at substance.
I choose, as a voter, to look at substance. The style, I will say…
MARGARET BRENNAN: What’s the substance of that, though?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: The substance is cutting taxes, making housing more affordable, immigration, national security. That’s the substance.
The style is, no, it is not helpful to talk about whether women have children or whether they don’t. It’s not helpful to say any of those things that are personality-driven or anything else. I have – I have said that.
And I will continue to say to Republicans, stop it. That’s not helpful. You know, if you want to talk about things, stick with policy. Americans are smart. They don’t need all of this other noise to distract them. They just want to know how you’re going to help them.
And they’re – you know, what I would suggest to every American, look at the records of each of them. You’ve got some stark contrasts there. You know, Harris was not strong on the border. Trump was strong on the border. Harris wanted to eliminate fracking. Now she’s taking that back, but energy production was not as strong as it was under the Trump administration.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s at a record high right now, actually.
But when you listen to some of the things – you said you don’t like handouts, and you’re concerned about sort of the fiscal conservatism here.
President – former President Trump pledged to mandate that the government and insurance companies pay for fertilization treatments, or IVF treatments, for women. Is that a policy you would support, that insurance companies or the federal government pay for that?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: It’s not a policy I support, any more than it’s a policy of Kamala Harris to remove private health insurance or Medicare for All.
Look, at the end of the day, when…
MARGARET BRENNAN: But this is the head of the Republican Party. This is the Republican nominee.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: I know, but, Margaret, you also have to talk about the head of the Democrat Party.
You know, don’t – don’t just look at one and not look at the other. When you talk about Medicare for All, when you talk about removing private health insurance, you might as well be Canada. You might as well look at socialist health care.
We never want to get to that point, because you’re not going to get IVF or anything else, cancer drugs or anything else when it comes to that. When you look at health care, we need to know – both of my children were products of fertility. We want that option to be available to everyone.
But the way you do it is, you don’t mandate coverage. Instead, you go and you make sure that coverage is accessible. And you make sure that you’re doing everything you can to make it affordable.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You would still urge people who identify as Republican to support policies that you say are not conservative?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: I don’t agree with Trump 100 percent of the time.
I don’t have to like him or agree with him 100 percent of the time to know that life for Americans would be better under the policies where we have strong immigration, where we have law and order, where we have an economy where we can look at opportunities, where we’ve got national security that is strong.
I don’t need to sit there and like someone to decide those policies are better. I do look at…
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s grading on a curve.
(LAUGHTER)
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: It’s not grading on a curve. I think it’s how you look at it, because I would ask you, how are people going to be better going through the next four years like we have the last four years?
Any American will tell you their life is not better. So our goal is, how do we make life better? Instead of making it about the personalities, can we not start saying, what do we all agree about on the policies?
Because there are some serious policy concerns.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Let me ask you about China, because this is a very serious threat picture around the world right now.
You were just in Taiwan for the first time.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Former President Trump said Taiwan should pay us for defense, and the U.S. is no different than an insurance company.
How concerned were Taiwanese officials by that comment?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: First of all, when I went to Taiwan, I think it’s important that Americans know what I saw.
I met with the president, the vice president, the defense minister. We were on a military base. We met with their intelligence officers. The life of a Taiwanese every single day, first of all, they have 30 million cyberattacks a month in Taiwan. They have aggression from air and sea by the Chinese every single week.
I wanted to see if Taiwan, if they were victims, waiting for a handout, or what they were saying. And I was so impressed, because they’re not waiting for help from anyone. Ten years ago, their Chinese investment was 84 percent.
Today, their Chinese investment is 11 percent. They are proactively not investing in China. Their mandatory military service starting at 18 years old, they had started at four months. They’ve now increased it. You have to serve militarily, at 18, for a year.
They’ve – you know, while cutting that investment, they are getting ready militarily. They’re doing joint training with America, which is fantastic.
When it comes to our allies, when it comes to freedom-loving countries, we need to be the best friend to them that we can, because, if China takes Taiwan, what we saw with Russia and Ukraine, it affected 1 percent of GDP, and you saw the economy shake from that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: If China takes Taiwan, it would be 10 percent of the global GDP. That’s $10 trillion, compared to the $1 trillion in Ukraine. We need to care about that. We need to care about it from freedom. We need to care about it from the economy. We need to care about it from security.
And we need to care about the fact that if Russia takes Ukraine and China takes Taiwan, we can’t assume we’re going to be OK if we live in a silo, because that’s not the case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But what you just laid out is a policy that’s strongly in defense of Taiwan.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: It is.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you saying that the next president should commit? Because neither J.D. Vance nor Donald Trump have said that they would send U.S. troops to defend Taiwan.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: I don’t think we need to send U.S. troops to defend Taiwan. Taiwan doesn’t – Taiwan does…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Joe Biden said he would as president, told my colleague at 60 Minutes Scott Pelley that.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: Taiwan does not want troops. What Taiwan is asking for is joint military training and to partner with us so that they can make weapons to defend themselves, and they want intelligence-sharing.
Look, I’m the hus – I’m the wife of a combat veteran. The last thing we want to do is just keep thinking about sending troops. If anything, we want to prevent war. The best way to prevent war from China is to start arming Taiwan now and making sure that they’re ready.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When you were campaigning, you said, when President Trump left office, China was militarily stronger than before. I mean, they’ve only increased that, in terms of their nuclear development and their expansion of their military.
You said Trump did not put us on a stronger military foothold in Asia. He did not stop all the theft of American technology. He had moral weakness in trying to befriend President Xi.
If this is the threat of this century, how can you say he is the commander in chief you can support now?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: Because I look at what happened under the Harris administration. You look at this situation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But aren’t we supposed to judge that record?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: No, we’re going to judge both records.
So let’s first look at the Harris administration. Russia never would have invaded Ukraine. China would not be circling…
MARGARET BRENNAN: They were in Ukraine. They did not withdraw from Ukraine.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: No, well, go further. They wouldn’t have started war with Ukraine and China would not have gotten more aggressive with Taiwan if we had not – would have not had that fall in Afghanistan.
It’s not that we left Afghanistan. It’s how we left it. It was dangerous, it was careless and it was weak, and we have suffered ever since. We didn’t have any conflicts under Trump. I was his U.N. ambassador. We put more sanctions on Russia. We kept China at bay. We let our allies know that they were – that they were protected. All of that happened.
Now, what I will say to both Trump and Harris is, the worst thing we can do is walk back from our friends right now. And so we need to be a friend to Ukraine, not make them beg. We need to be a friend to Taiwan, prepare so that China doesn’t do it. We need to be a friend to Israel and not say we’re going to give you and then take it back, like what Harris and Biden did.
We’ve got to start being friends with our allies. I will say it until I’m blue in the face. America can never be so arrogant to think we don’t need friends. And you have to be a friend to get a friend.
So, look, there are no perfect administrations here, by any means, but Trump was definitely stronger when it came to national security, as opposed to the Harris administration. And that’s just a fact.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But how can you be confident that he will be? You’re talking about four more years, when he is saying things like this. He’s talking about like a protection racket for Taiwan. They have to pay us.
(CROSSTALK)
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: No.
And I will be the first one to say that’s not the way it should be. I – look, I’m always going to tell you the truth on where I think.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: This is not blind support for anyone. This is saying, don’t sit there and threaten Taiwan that you’re going to – on being friends.
This is, they have 50 percent of our chip production, they are a friend and ally to us, and they’re a democracy. Let’s have it – if anything, this is what I would tell Donald Trump and Kamala Harris. What you need to do with Taiwan is help them economically, militarily, diplomatically.
Economically, we should have a free trade agreement with Taiwan, without question.
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: … talks toward that.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: Diplomatically, we should – we should require that Taiwan become a member in the United Nations and in the World Health Organization.
And, militarily, we should do whatever we can to joint-exercise, share intelligence, and do what we can.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have talked about the isolationism in the party, and it troubles you.
This past week, Justice Department brought a case against Russia regarding a $10 million disinformation campaign in which it was using, in part, right-wing media. Do you think that this isolationist streak is being fueled by the Russian state, the problems you are diagnosing right now that you are also saying Donald Trump is echoing in some way?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: Margaret, this is bigger than that. This is the tip of the iceberg.
First of all, look at what happened in Hochul’s office with the Chinese influence and what was happening there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The governor here in New York.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: Look at the murder-for-hire plot on U.S. soil, which I was named in, by Iran.
Look at the Russian disinformation, which didn’t start this year. This has been going on for years. Russia, China, Iran and North Korea, to some extent, they have spent years on the cheapest form of warfare is, which is, how do you divide Americans and cause chaos?
They have done that. When I was running my presidential campaign, the FBI had a separate hearing with me to let me know that Iran was meddling in our – influencing the election through with our campaign. They were…
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: To hurt you or to help you?
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: To hurt me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: To hurt you.
FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY: You know, the murder for plot – hire plot named me. That’s by Iran. This has been going for a long time, and Americans need to wake up.
Don’t just look at Russia. Don’t just look at China. Don’t just look at Iran. The biggest lesson we need to take is, when you look at social media, I bet you a larger percentage of those are foreign engagements. And when I was in Taiwan, they would tell you they could look at Facebook. Any time Taiwan put something out, it was suppressed. Anything China put out, it was played up.
Why is that? Our social media companies owe Americans from a national security perspective. How many of these foreign bots are dividing us? Every bit of our government, influencers, press and media need to say, how many of these foreign influencers are buying people? And what are we doing to protect us?
Nothing. No one’s talking about TikTok. Biden and Trump both said they were against TikTok. They’re both on it now. Kamala is on it now. China loves that. America needs to wake up when it comes to foreign actors.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Face the Nation will be back in one minute.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we go now to the governor, Roy Cooper, of North Carolina, a battleground state.
He joins us from Raleigh.
Good morning to you, Governor.
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER (D-North Carolina): Good morning, Margaret. Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Vice President Harris will be in your state Thursday. We know this is a consequential week. Debates can be catastrophic. They can be inconsequential.
Do you anticipate the average North Carolinian is open to persuasion or even watching what happens on that debate stage this week?
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: There’s no question about it.
It’s close here in North Carolina. It always is. This was Biden/Harris’ closes loss in 2020, only 1.3 percent. So the fact that Kamala Harris, as vice president of the United States, has been to North Carolina 17 times shows that she cares about our state.
She knows that we are in play. And she knows that if she wins North Carolina, she is the next president of the United States, because Trump has no other pathway.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is it winning or is it just reducing the amount by which they lose rural voters? You have a very large rural population in your state.
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: And, you know, things that the Biden/Harris administration has done has helped our rural population.
I have been able to expand Medicaid here in North Carolina. That’s helped working rural North Carolinians. We’re getting high-speed Internet all across our state. That’s something that people are beginning to find out about. And she’s got a plan.
She’s got a plan to lower costs for North Carolinians, particularly in this childcare arena, drug pricing. We’re excited about the economic plan that she has.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: And I think North Carolinians will respond to it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I want to ask you more about some of that, because our latest CBS polling shows it is a very, very tight race, and it is the issue of economy and inflation that is weighing the most on voters.
So we’re going to talk about that in a few minutes, when we take this break. And we’ll come back to finish it with you, Governor.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: CBS will have special coverage of the presidential debate on Tuesday, with a preview at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. The live simulcast of the debate will begin at 9:00 p.m., followed by expert analysis.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper, House Foreign Relations Chair Michael McCaul, and the top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, Jim Himes.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.
We continue our conversation with the Democratic governor of North Carolina, Roy Cooper.
Governor, our CBS polling shows this is still a competitive race for Donald Trump, largely because of those voters who just don’t think they are better off financially right now. Their incomes are not keeping up with inflation. This is especially true among non-college and white and working class voters.
How do Democrats change this perception?
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: Well, I think that same poll, Margaret, said that people had more trust in Kamala Harris to help the middle class. And as she spends time getting out her economic plan of shifting the tax burden here, we need to make sure that billionaires and corporations pay their fair share and that everyday people and small businesses get the tax benefits.
As she talks about her childcare plan and providing childcare tax credits, you’ve got Donald Trump, who clearly doesn’t understand the problem. You got J.D. Vance who’s saying, well, you should get your grandparents or your aunts or uncles to look after children, completely clueless.
When we continue to get this information out to the American public and to people here in North Carolina, that Kamala Harris has an economic plan that’s going to help lower the cost for everyday people, that’s going to help families thrive, that is going to protect women’s reproductive freedom, I think at the end of the day that’s going to be what works here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you’ve got a short period of time to – to do that, sir, in this election.
One of the things that we did hear about from the vice president this past week was her endorsement of a less dramatic increase in the capital gains tax rate than what Joe Biden had proposed. This is a tax on assets owned for more than a year on – on households bringing in over a million dollars in income.
Now, the vice president hasn’t said whether she supports Biden’s proposal to tax unrealized gains. That’s getting a lot of focus from Republicans.
I’m just wondering, though, is this announcement in positioning really just an attempt to appear more moderate, to appear more pro-business? Is it just a political ploy?
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: Well, I think what Kamala Harris found out in the period of time, the three and a half plus years that she’s been vice president, that you have to achieve consensus to get things done. And that’s exactly what she’s been able to do.
Overall, what she wants to do is to shift the burden here. Clearly the billionaires are not paying their fair share. And we’ve got to figure out a way to make sure that we can get them to do that, while easing the burden on the middle class.
And the way you do that is to try to find consensus, because as you know, it’s very tough to get legislation through both the House and the Senate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: And that will continue to be a challenge. But she’s shown that she’s got the ability to help do that. Tim Walz was in the – was in the Congress, so he’s got the ability to help push legislation that helps shift this balance. So, I’m excited about the potential for them being president and vice president of the United States.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, and having to work with Congress.
I want to ask you about guns. We saw this horrific shooting in Georgia this past week. And the father of that shooter is facing second-degree murder and other charges because he gave his son that AR-15-style weapon that was used.
You’re a former state attorney general and that – I wonder what you think of this – this precedent of prosecuting parents. Do you think it’s effective in dissuading gun violence?
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: I think we have to do everything we can to reduce gun violence, particularly gun violence in our schools. And I think that that is appropriate.
But we also know that these military-style assault weapons are being used by lots of people. They can kill multiple people. We don’t need to have them on the streets.
Look, you can’t be tough on crime if you’re weak on gun laws. Vice President Harris and I, here in North Carolina, as a gun owner, as the supporter of the Second Amendment, support stronger background checks, red flag laws, and banning these military-style assault weapons. We shouldn’t even have them available for people to use in these mass murders that are occurring.
I’m tired of seeing texts from children in a school telling their parents that they’re afraid and that they love them. We cannot normalize this. J.D. Vance said this is just a fact of life.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well –
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: No, it’s not. No, it’s not.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He said it’s an – it’s an –
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: It should not be.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He said he regrets that it’s become a fact of life.
But – but you do agree then with prosecuting parents is what I understand from what you just said there?
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: And – look, if the – if – if the evidence is there, yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: The fact we – we need to make sure that people are responsible. If you’re giving a 14-year-old – and I don’t know what all of the evidence is here. Obviously, you’ve got to wait until the court. But if you’re giving a 14-year-old –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: Particularly one who said that they are involved – liked mass shootings and you’re giving that 14-year-old an AR-15 as a birthday present, that is a problem.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
Would you serve, perhaps, as attorney general in a future Harris administration?
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: Look, I’m going to – I’m going to be involved in some kind of public service. I’m running through the tape as governor. It’s a lot for me to do. Going to work to make sure we elect Kamala Harris as president, elect Democrats in North Carolina.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: Then we’ll see.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Governor, thank you for your time.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re back with the chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Republican Michael McCaul of Texas.
Congressman, good morning.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I have a lot to get to with you. I want to quickly ask you about what we heard from the Justice Department on Friday in regard to this massive Russian scheme to influence the upcoming election.
Back in the spring you took some heat after you said Russian propaganda had infected a good chunk of your party’s base. And you blamed right wing media. It seems like you’re being vindicated here. But Donald Trump said yesterday at a rally, he seemed to dismiss all of it. “I don’t know what it is with poor Russia.”
Do you have any reason to doubt what the Justice Department and intelligence community said?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Look, Russia’s been trying to do this, you know, many years. So has China. So has Iran for that matter. And it’s intensified. And I think – I didn’t blame anybody for it. I blame Russia for putting disinformation in the United States that does get picked up by people unwittingly in many cases. I think, in this particular case, the owners of the company knew they were dealing with a Russian disinformation campaign. And if that’s true, should be indicted.
But it’s a problem with China. They’re involved in my election, just like Nikki talked about her election. Iran, under indictment there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: So, I mean, this is Russia, China, Iran, North Korea.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to put that aside for a minute and delve into your investigation. You’ve been on this program a number of times over the past three years investigating the U.S. withdraw from Afghanistan. Your report comes out tomorrow.
Explain the timing because it’s an election season, a day before the presidential debate. Your ranking member colleague is saying that this is politically motivated, and they didn’t even get a copy of the report.
Why is that?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: They’re getting a copy of the report today, as is Secretary Blinken, as is the White House. And –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is this politics, though, in an election year?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: No. It’s taken me two years to get to this point because of the obstruction. I’ve had to sort of subpoena after subpoena, move to compel, threaten to, you know, hold the secretary in contempt to get information, like after action reports, all these documents, testimonies that we finally got to.
Why is it important right now, Margaret? Because of the foreign policy is at stake. What happened after Afghanistan impacted the world. Why? Because Putin responded by invading Ukraine two months after Afghanistan fell. Chairman Xi, Putin made an unwholly alliance in Beijing threatening the Pacific now. And then the Ayatollah reared his ugly head in the Middle East. And we’re seeing this.
Finally, this is really important. The Bagram prisons unleashed thousands of ISIS-K prisoners that went to the Korazin (ph) region. Eight of those, and that’s who we know about, have been detained by the FBI in the United States that got in through the southwest border. This is a failed foreign policy colliding with a failed border policy all at the same time. I think it’s very relevant.
Lastly, my investigation will go well after the election.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Where does it go next?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: We have a lot of unanswered questions regarding the DOD. You know, what happened on the ground? Why were these snipers left basically unprotected? Where was the surveillance equipment that was videotaping? Why don’t we have one video of the suicide bomber going off?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, there’s a go-pro camera that you document that did film it, and there was a reaper drone, I believe, that started filming three minutes after the explosion.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: After. After.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But – but are you implying here some kind of conspiracy? I mean, you can’t be saying that the Pentagon wanted –
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: I’m not a conspiracy guy. I’m a prosecutor. This was done very methodically. I went (ph) looking for press clippings. I did this, facts, evidence. I didn’t reach any conclusions.
But the fact is, typically they do multi attacks at the same time. We know that –
MARGARET BRENNAN: The ISIS suicide bombers who attacked at Abbey Gate?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Correct. And that’s their – that’s their modus operandi. That’s how they conduct these things. We do know that all the video was destroyed after. What we know from the – the Marines on the ground –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Is that shots were coming from the Taliban. And some of the Marines were actually hit by bullets. According to their testimony. It’s the best evidence we have because the videos were destroyed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, General McKenzie, in a briefing in 2022, said that that was ball bearings that came from the suicide bomber’s explosion and there was some dispute over the bullets. But –
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: And that very well may be the case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But I guess why I’m asking is, there have been multiple CENTCOM investigations, a State Department investigation, do you not accept the findings of those investigations?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: If it wasn’t for my investigation, CENTCOM never – never would have opened – reopened an investigation. It was this, you know, very brave sniper that came forward, you know, Tyler Vargas- Andrews, that came forward and said, I had the suicide bomber in my sights, I asked for permission to engage, permission was denied.
MARGARET BRENNAN: CENTCOM denies that that happened.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: They denied it happened. I want to know where they got the picture. Is that a picture of the bomber at the site at HKIA or where did they get that picture? We just don’t know.
MARGARET BRENNAN: HKIA being the – the airport.
I want to ask you though, 11 Marines, one sailor and one soldier lost their lives at Abbey Gate when it – that suicide bomber detonated. On Tuesday the speaker of the House is presenting an award to the family members of the fallen. That’s also debate day. I think you would agree all gold star families need to be respected in this country More than 2,400 Americans were killed in Afghanistan, 45 combat deaths under Donald Trump. Why aren’t all of them being honored? Why only these 13?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Well, this was one of the deadliest days in Afghanistan. It could have been prevented if the State Department did its job by law and executed the plan of evacuation. They did not do that until – until the day the Taliban invaded and overran Kabul. By that time, it was too late. They let these 13 service men and women hang out to dry, 170 Afghans killed, 45 service members and Afghans injured as a result of the, I’d say, moral negligence on the part of the administration, allowing this to happen. I think it’s totally appropriate to honor them.
It was never done with the intention of it being on the same date as the debate. That was not a coordinated effort.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Really?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: To my knowledge it was not.
MARGARET BRENNAN: General McKenzie, who was the CENTCOM commander in 2021, said “the Trump era Doha agreement was one of the worst negotiating mistakes ever made by the United States. It was the operational mechanism that killed Afghanistan, that destroyed the government of Afghanistan. Did you identify mistakes by the Trump administration?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Well, we identified Zalkowizad (ph). The mistake here with –
MARGARET BRENNAN: The negotiator.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Yes. With Doha was the fact that he negotiates with the Taliban and leaves out the Afghan government.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: That was a slap in the face to them. And it was not good for morale.
Having said that, the Taliban –
MARGARET BRENNAN: That was the Trump policy.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Yes. And the Taliban was in violation of Doha. That’s why Trump left 2,500 troops.
When President Biden came into office, it was very clear, go to zero. In fact, his press guy said, it’s immaterial. Doha agreement is immaterial to us going to zero.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: We’re getting the hell out of there irrespective of conditions on the ground.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Both presidents agree with getting out. It was the military that opposed.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Well, the Trump administration had conditions.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How it was done.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: I don’t think – I don’t think we can speculate. One thing’s for sure, Biden had an agenda on day one to get out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I have so many more questions for you, sir, but I’m told we’re out of time and we have to leave it there.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mike McCaul, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
We’ll be back in a moment.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Thanks, Maragaret.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Joining us now is the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, Democrat Jim Himes of Connecticut.
Congressman, good morning to you.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES (D-CT): Thanks for having me, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: A lot I want to get to with you, but I did want to offer you a chance to respond, if you care to, to Congressman McCaul. I know you and most Democrats supported President Biden’s decision to withdraw from Afghanistan, although I think you’d agree the exit was one of the darkest days of – of his presidency to date.
What do you make of the Republican argument that this reflect on Vice President Harris’ abilities to serve as commander in chief?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, you’re right, Margaret, when you say that that was a very dark day. Any time we lose service members, it’s a very dark day. And the 13 that we lost at Abbey Gate are – are rightly remember. And you know how you remember them best? You remember, as you pointed out in your interview with – with Chairman McCaul, that there were also almost 2,500 others killed in Afghanistan over a 20-year period.
What Chairman McCaul is going to offer to the American people, though, is – and – and you said it right, it’s going to be about Vice President Harris. It is a politicized, cherry-picked report designed to do one thing, not shed light on a tragedy, which, by the way, I would support 100 percent. And, by the way, let’s also look at the 20 years and the four presidents that doubled down on Afghanistan policy. It is going to be a nakedly partisan campaign thing.
Chairman McCaul said it at the end there. You know, what – the military issues that he was raising, you know, he didn’t mention the fact that – when he said that the – that President Biden came with an agenda to withdraw from Afghanistan, President Biden did not come with an agenda. He came with a binding agreement negotiated by President Trump, who also released 5,000 Taliban. And, by the way – and here’s the key point that didn’t come up, who also left President Biden with 2,500 troops in Afghanistan.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Margaret, when we were attacked on January 6th on the Capitol, in the days after, we had more than 2,500 national guardsmen guarding the Capitol.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: That’s the tools and that’s the agreement that Donald Trump left President Biden with.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And there were thousands more NATO troops as well. So, the 2,500 is a little bit misleading. But let’s put that aside. Just to honor our allies there that surely you know about.
I want to ask you about the ISIS threat. On Friday, it was disclosed that a 20-year-old ISIS supporter was apprehended 12 miles from the U.S.-Canada border. The FBI said the individual was a Pakistani citizen residing in Canada who was planning a mass shooting attack in New York City on or around October 7th to kill as many Jews as possible.
Do you have any insight into whether this individual was self-radicalized? Was he directed? What is the threat picture here?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Yes, you know, we’ve been out of session for some time, so I – it’s been a little while since I’ve had a classified briefing. So, I – I probably can’t specifically answer the question about that individual.
What I can tell you is two things. Number one, ISIS is dedicated, as is, by the way, Iran and any number of other groups, to trying to strike the United States. That is a fact and that is why it is so important, the work of the intelligence community and the FBI to stop that stuff. And they’re pretty good at that.
You saw the arrests, of course, of the eight people who were affiliated with – with terrorist groups. They’re very good at what they do. It’s very hard for them to be perfect. But it’s also important that we not overexaggerate the threat here. We have come a very long way – I’m actually just back from a 9/11 ceremony on the 23rd anniversary celebrating – or memorializing that – that hideous attack. You know, the intelligence community, the military, the FBI, have come a long way since 9/11 and, as a consequence, we learn about these things, and hopefully we’ll be in a position to obstruct as many of them as possible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Fair point.
I want to switch gears, if I can, and – you are right to remind us all that we are coming up on that 9/11 anniversary. A memorial to all of those.
On the question of election interference, we got these disclosures from the intelligence community this week and the Justice Department. This was a sophisticated scheme to interfere in the election by setting up fake news sites, paying $10 million to a Tennessee-based company to launder Moscow’s propaganda. They used podcasters, they used well-known personalities on YouTube to trick American voters in swing states, according to the DOJ.
How effective has this campaign been?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, that’s a really hard question to answer, Margaret, because that gets into the question of, you know, gosh, are these crazy right wing websites and right wing journalists who evidently, their money came from Russia, are they actually having an impact on the election? It’s sort of hard to believe in a 50-50 election that’s going to be played out in sort of four or five states that it’s not going to have some impact on the margin, which is why two things are really important. Number one, back to the FBI, back to our intelligence community, they need to double down on identifying, naming and shaming those countries that are doing this. And Chairman McCaul was right, it’s primarily Russia. Russia has really pulled out all the stops. But it’s also China. It’s also Iran. There’s even some other countries that are thinking about it.
But, Margaret, I feel very passionately about this. They can only succeed if American citizens hand over their autonomy, their sovereignty, their critical thinking abilities to the Russians or to the Chinese. And so what I always tell my constituents, if you’re looking at some random social media site and you are getting hotter and hotter and angrier and angrier and people who disagree with you are not just the opposition but they’re traitors, you know what you’re doing, you are being manipulated. And it may just be by Facebook’s algorithms, but there’s some chance it might actually be the Kremlin or the Chinese or the Iranians who are manipulating you. And if you’re going to be manipulated that easily, guess what, this country’s going to get the democracy that we deserve.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Vladimir Putin publicly said he was endorsing Vice President Harris this past week. U.S. intelligence, though, assesses that it is Donald Trump that is, in fact, Moscow’s preferred candidate.
Do you know whether Putin is directing this particular campaign?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, I will tell you that super sensitive things like meddling in U.S. elections, you – you know the nature of the Kremlin and of Putin and of his autocracy. Nothing serious happens in Russia without Vladimir Putin signing off on it. So, precisely how he – involved he is – is an open question. But believe me, yes, he would – and look, you know, the whole, you know, I’m endorsing Harris thing –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: All you need to do is listen to the way the two candidates talk about Russia and Ukraine, and you can develop a pretty independent sense of what Putin would like to see happen on Election Day.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You said earlier this week that banks are required to research their clients when you were being asked about this case of a Tennessee based company that CBS is reporting is Tenet Media that was being manipulated by the Russians. What is the principle you’re asking to be applied here?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, I guess – and – and I’m not talking about legal compulsion necessarily here, although banks are required to know their customers. It’s nice to imagine that, you know, massive social media platforms, or massive media platforms, like Tenet, might actually do a little research to try to figure out where their money is coming from.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Frankly, the people who look at their media have a right to know where that money comes from.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: So, you know, at a minimum, check this stuff out because you may not want to be complicit in a Kremlin operation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
Congressman Himes, thank you for your insight.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you for watching. Until next week, for FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
